TRANSCRIPT: Tales4Teaching ep. 87 – Guide for Curriculum Design for First Nations Science

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Joan: Welcome to Tales4Teaching, a podcast where we explore stories with purpose in higher education. We’ll share expert insights, engaging interviews, and thought-provoking discussions that will inspire your teaching. On behalf of Deakin University I would like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the unceded lands and waterways on which you are located. I acknowledge the Wadawurrong people of the Kulin Nation as the Traditional Owners on which this podcast was recorded, and I pay my respects to Elders past, present and future.

My name is Joan Sutherland and this is Tales4Teaching, brought to you by Deakin Learning Futures.

Joan: Hello, and welcome to today’s podcast. I am very excited today to talk to to both Tui and Karla about a guide for curriculum development for the First Nations Sciences. Hi, Tui and Karla. Hello. Hi.

Welcome to this podcast. And to get started, can you just tell us a bit about yourselves? Tui, did you wanna get a start?

Tui: Hi. I’m, Tui Raven. I’m Yamaji Noongar, so from the Southwest and Midwest of WA. I’m the senior manager of Indigenous programs at Deakin Library. Indigenous programs are set up to implement initiatives in both the library and the university that reflect contemporary understandings of First Nations culture and perspectives and increased cultural intelligence.

And Karla?

Karla: I’m a lecturer in learning development in the SEBE Innovation team. And so we’re part of DLF, Deakin Learning Futures, but we’re also part of the faculty of Science Engineering and Built Environment. And I work with the unit chairs and academics and on project to enhance curriculum and to write curriculum and different things and working assessment. And I am the one that got this project started, the framework project, and been very lucky to work with Tui at another group. There’s 11 of us in total.

Oh, wow. Tui’s a very important part of the project. Thanks, Karla.

Joan: That’s recorded, Tui, just so you know. But can you just give us some context around the project itself?

Karla: Yes. I was working with unit chairs and working in First Nations curriculum, and I was noticing a range of different things. Unit chairs were either reluctant to get started, wanting advice or wanting to go straight to community to get advice. And we had local community members that were, kept everyone kept going to the same person that we knew. And they were kinda getting a little bit overloaded, and I was feeling like it would be great if there was a way for science educators to get advice on their curriculum from First Nations people and science expert with it while taking the load off community, but also making it easier to First Nations curriculum in so that our First Nations staff and students can see themselves in the curriculum and it’s done respectfully and appropriately, But all the while, yeah, taking the load off community, that’s what I was hoping.

Joan: It sounds like there was a lot of, willingness to get involved, and willingness to embed First Nations principles, in the curriculum. Tui, how did you get involved?

Tui: So I got involved, 1, because, obviously, the introduction with Karla and the library the Indigenous programs at the library is uniquely set up to assist with all of those faculties of Deakin community. So whether it’s related to academics, staff teaching, professional staff, I work in that unique space where I can assist with a lot of initiatives in that space. I also look for projects that are like, what can relieve the burden of everyone. But that, as Karla had said, people are often getting asked for the same things over and over again, and this is one of the projects that I thought they could just value add in such an amazing way. I guess I also became involved because I’m in the guidelines of First Nation collection description for the Australian library sector, which is a unique document that’s set up to make accessibility for First Nations materials and collections easier and to assist metadata specialists. So I have a bit of a skill set in being able to write these kinds of documents and also understand what different sorts of audiences that may be.

So you might have the intended audience, but you’ve also got the unintended audience as well.

Joan: I love how you frame that with the intended and unintended audience because there are a number of different audience for work such as this. So your objectives were around taking the load off the community you both have mentioned. How do you see this framework benefiting First Nations communities

Karla: Yeah. So the first point is the importance of the way the framework’s being developed will help to achieve our outcomes. So it’s been developed with a lot of consultation and collaboration. There’s a group of 11 of us from all over Australia. Nearly half of our team is First Nation, and all people that work in the field in different institution.

We’ve got QUT, Charles Darwin, Murdoch, Monash, and Deakin University. Right. What a great collaboration. Isn’t it? And we also have, an Indigenous advisory group that we meet we meet with them 3 times over the year, made up of 6 First Nation knowledge holders from all over Australia as well.

We invited all the Deputy Vice-Chancellors Indigenous and Pro Vice-Chancellor Indigenous to, see the progress and what we were thinking of doing back in July, make sure they were happy and could anticipate what we were doing. And we also did workshops with, science educators. We did focus groups that we’re going to use for research, but we consulted with science educators to see there were First Nations and non-First Nations educators and was saying, does this work for you? Where are the gaps here? Will you be able to use this on your own?

And how does this affect your competence in doing this kind of work? So by doing all that, we’ve tried to develop a framework that is the voice of our First Nation team members and the people we consulted with. And in doing that, trying to ensure there’s a lot of diversity of opinion in all communities, and that same is true of First Nations communities. But we’ve tried really hard to do something. The communities are going to be happy with the kind of work that comes out of it, that they feel like, yes, this is respectful and appropriate.

We’ve got sections of the framework where it’s the kind of work you can do on your own without community. Like, you can quite safely do this appropriately on your own. And then we’ve got a section where you’re going into this area, you really do need to work get advice at the least or collaborate with community. So it’s like a it’s a framework of guideline to give you an idea where you are on the spectrum and whether you can self assess how you’re going and whether what you’re doing is gonna be okay and good.

Tui: I think what’s really important to note is that when we work in this space, especially for, Indigenous or First Nations communities, often we see our knowledge as being used in a way that probably isn’t appropriate. But what the framework does is shows you how to use it in appropriate manners whether or not you need to engage communities or whether there’s stuff that is respectfully already available online that may be used. And so it’s about showcasing Indigenous knowledges or in this instance, First Nation Science in respectful ways, and it’s all based on Joe Sambono’s, intellectual property who’s worked in this area extensively and has a very good grounding about what this looks like in teaching spaces. It’s really nice to see it elevated to higher education and in a way that I think is gonna be easy to access for teaching staff, and I don’t just mean in the science area. And back to my previous comment about unintended audiences, I think people in all the other areas are gonna look at this, and it’s gonna be a huge eye opener.

I think it’ll it just unlocks a small part of your brain when you’re thinking about these areas to go you might even go, I’m on the right track or, wow, I got it really wrong.

Karla: Yeah. We’ve got the case studies as well, and they’re tied very tightly to science curriculum, the Mhmm. The case studies. And but they do include, like, engineering physics and engineering chemistry as well. So they’re already leaning into other STEM disciplines just because they’ve been the sciences are across a lot of STEM disciplines.

Mhmm. But the case studies themselves are really focused in on on science curriculum. But the framework itself, like Tui says, it’s applicable more broadly, particularly in STEM. Yep. Yeah.

Joan: And going back to what you said, earlier, Karla, around there’s a lot of diversity of opinions, around this, which is a benefit, I would imagine, bring bringing together a framework and, bringing a lot of views and perspectives around. How do we ensure that the perspectives are authentically represented within a framework such as this?

Karla: I guess the the key to it, in the section where you’re working alone to develop curriculum called the top triangle of the framework, we have guidance on finding examples and using sources and determining whether a source is appropriate, and that can help to decide if it is a good thing to use. So we use the ICAT guide and what’s it? Tui, the Indigenous knowledges attribution toolkit. Correct. That’s from the Indigenous Archive Collective.

It’s a referencing guidance for Indigenous knowledges. So, yeah, the framework itself goes into detail about the principles behind how it was developed, but then there’s a curriculum development section that talks about positionality and the educator journey, talks about the framework, and talks about finding examples and finding sources of information and being careful of the secret and sacred, those sorts of things. We tried to I guess if we had more time, it would we could keep going with it. But Mhmm. Yeah.

We’ve tried to give everything someone would need when they’re alone. They’re doing their curriculum work in an evening, and there’s no one to ask a question to. We’ve tried to have everything in there as a reference point to be able to find all the answers you need.

Joan: A big body of work that spans across is it

Karla: the whole year that this has been going? Yeah. We started late last year. We all met together in Naarm in Melbourne 2 days together face to face, and that’s when we got the bones of it out. But then Tui turned those bones into something that looked like a framework because before that, it didn’t really look like a framework.

 

But There’s always someone that has to have that visual representation. But but, yeah, it has the foundation of the framework is Joe Sambono’s work, Touhy, was saying. Everyone in the team has contributed, but without Joe’s intellectual property in there, we it wouldn’t be the same guide that it is today.

Tui: I just wanted to add. I think one of the unique things about this framework, which has parallels to the Indigenous knowledge as attribution toolkit, is the critical analysis skills that we are encouraging people to to upskill themselves in. So what they’re looking at is what do I or don’t I know? What should I know before I come into this? So there’s what’s my positionality?

Where do I stand? How does this work for me? What do I need to find out first before I can implement some of these changes within my own curriculum practice? And that’s really nice to see. When you see a framework that actually requires someone to consider how they’re going to work and what they’re going to do, I think it’s very valuable tool

Joan: Well, so positioning statement, essentially, where they’re actually starting from. And I I would imagine there would be a lot of reflection from an educator’s perspective throughout the process and at the conclusion of it as well once they’ve integrated it.

Karla: Yeah. We’ve got some question as well in there to guide considering your positionality and in relation to the sciences because we challenge the notion that Eurocentric science is science, and so it’s really matter of science. It’s actually broader than that world view. So it’s all part of educators considering how they’re approaching it and doing the work on their own positioning as part of it.

Joan: Wow. So you both mentioned around the framework impacting both First Nations and non-First Nations students. What changes do you hope to see in students’ attitudes towards science with this framework embedded in the curriculum? I think a more holistic view of the world

Tui: as opposed to their science, Eurocentric science on one side and First Nations science on the other. We intersect because it’s a it relates it relates to world views. So it’d be really nice to see that, and I think what’s really important is for the young Indigenous kids coming up, the First Nations students coming up, they can see themselves actually reflected within curriculum. And you could actually get a sense of, I don’t live outside of this society. I’m part

Joan: of it. And that’s hugely powerful, isn’t it? Yeah. Absolutely.

 

Karla: Yeah. It’s so important. And one of the principles of the framework is comes from Joe Sambono, for us, about us, with us, and it’s about for us. He said it’s for First Nations kids seeing themselves in the curriculum about us, students getting a window into First Nations Sciences and Knowledge, and with us, everyone working together and collaboratively to be the 21st century scientists of the future. So yeah.

Joan: I love that that it’s a more holistic view versus almost a right and role answer that it’s actually incorporating cultural knowledge in there, which would be so powerful for individual students. I can only imagine coming in as an Indigenous student and seeing that reflected within the curriculum. As you said, Thuy, that that you see yourself as part of it, which is something that you would wanna do for the whole education system, really.

Tui: I think what’s also worth mentioning, and it’s unique, is not as it just only is it just about the worldview, it’s also about that that microcosm of Indigenous knowledges that specific to each community. So while you might be able to see that worldview, there’s also these bits that are completely owned, and I use that word very strongly, owned by Indigenous communities. And they have a right to talk about those knowledges within their own context, which is what we call below the triangle.

Joan: Yeah. So has it been integrated into one of the units and trialled as yet with feedback? Or

Karla: We’ve used we’ve had educator workshops, so we’ve introduced a draft version of it a few months ago to 2 groups of educators and did follow-up interviews with them to see how they’re feeling. It’s more of a long term plan. We’ve got our launches coming soon, and I’ve been hearing from people attending saying their universities are intending to roll it out across their schools. But they’re thinking, of doing it in a long term, course wide way, which is ideal, really. So, we’ve got the support of different institution once it’s launched.

But I think this kind of work you can do small things should be part of the everyday. It should just be a normal part of what we do, but you can also do very meaningful work with some planning and looking course wide. You can do meaningful scaffolded work across entire courses. I think this will assist people going both ways. But, ideally, this just becomes a normal part of curriculum development and Absolutely.

Joan: Be a part of what we do. It should be. Yep. You mentioned just then around that this is long term. Are there any long-term goals for how this framework might evolve in the future?

Are you seeing it as an evolution, or is it really is it you can go use this and that power will stay?

 

Karla: The Australian Council of Deans of Science that supported this project made it it’s all have an indigenous community of practice, and working with this framework is gonna be supported in the community of practice. There’ll be presentations and discussions and things, and it’s somewhere people can get advice. Whether or not we end up doing another version in the future, I I couldn’t say at this point that I I have already had people asking me whether we’re doing it in other disciplines as well, but that Yeah. That’s a question for later. Yeah

Yeah.

Joan: It’s great that it’s an ongoing discussion, though. You’re like having something that can we can discuss and create awareness that it can be implanted as a course wide approach to in the side curriculum.

Tui: I think what’s unique about this framework is that I think it’ll actually change the way we talk about the use of Indigenous knowledges. I say in 3 to 5 years, people will start saying, is that above the triangle think thinking or below the triangle thinking? And when you look at it, if you have that framework in mind and the diagram, you can actually get a clear sense of what that means. So even if people just start using that terminology to describe whether they’re showcasing or actually using quite, intimate Indigenous knowledges, then you know that you’ve made

Joan: a difference. So you they can be really impactful for many people. My next question is, where where do people access this, and how do they get involved to actually embed it within their curriculum?

Karla: So we’ve got 2 launches coming up. There’s information on the Australian Council of Deans for Science website. We’ve also got a face to face Melbourne panel launch. Joe Sambono, Tui, Jordan Achi, and Katrina Rokugoni Yang about the framework. But the framework is gonna be up on the Australian Council of Deaf of Science website just before then in early December, in the 1st week of December, and it’ll be available freely available from the website.

We’re also hoping that the library’s launching the First Nations Hub.

Tui: And in 2025, we’re looking at some faculty site specific resources, and so we’re hoping that we can link out to that as well.

Joan: So there’s a number of places, that you’ll be able to find it and really take it upon yourself, essentially, to take that first step to embed it within their curriculum. And, it just sounds like that it’s going to really guide educators to embed indigenous knowledges. So, take that first step to actually move to integrating it within their curriculum versus the side view, something that you said earlier, Tui, is really sticking with me that saying, it has seemed so powerful that students see themselves reflected within and being part of, so I keep going back to that. What I’d like to do is say thank you, for your time today. Is there anything else that you would like to add around this framework or anything else you would like to share with our audience?

Karla: When Tui mentioned guiding educators to showcase Indigenous sciences and knowledges, there’s a really important distinction in the framework between not trying to teach First Nation knowledges and science, only showcasing it. So like putting a spotlight onto it, but not trying to teach culture. And that distinction makes a big difference to making sure what educators are doing is appropriate and respectful by not trying to teach something that’s not their culture.

Joan: And having not seen the framework, does that go back to the triangle that you’re talking about around the above or below the line thinking?

Karla: Yeah. It’s yeah. It does. If you wanna go beyond showcasing, you need to collaborate with a First Nations person to Absolutely. To have those classes, and that’s really clear on the below triangle, on the bottom I

Tui: I just wanted to add, if anyone who’s worked in that space or trying to understand what ICIP is or Indigenous culture and intellectual property rights are, this is a really nice way to look at it. It gives you all of those understandings that you can’t really get just from reading what a description of RCIP is and how to apply it. So this actually shows you how to respectfully understand RCIP.

Joan: I’ll I look forward to actually having a look at it and seeing its launch in the coming month, and I think it highlights the contributions and collaboration foundations that this was built on, started with, and then you’ve built upon that to create what sounds like a really useful, impactful, and meaningful framework that educators can use to integrate it into their curriculum. Thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it, and I really look forward to seeing it and know that it will be of use in the education system as a whole, not only just the science curriculums, but maybe frame a conversation around other streams, essentially.

Karla: Thanks, Joan. Thanks. Thank thank you.